Conversation partners
Edited excerpts from interviews with three senior practitioners who have spent years accompanying organisations towards leading together, and one choreographer who brings an artist’s way of knowing.
- Mette Aagaard (Denmark) former executive with 30+ years transforming organisations; author of the first Danish book on shared leadership.
- Karin Tenelius (Sweden) co-founder of Tuff Leadership Training and co-author of Moose Heads on the Table.
- Nati Lombardo (Argentina/Spain) facilitator and co-founder of The Hum; member of the Enspiral network.
- Dejan Srhoj (Slovenia) contemporary dance artist and choreographer, co-founder of Nomad Dance Academy.
Chapter 1 · Cracks in our society and working environments
Chapter 1 · Cracks in our society and working environments
Chapter 1 · Why artistic methods support transformation
Chapter 1 · The benefits of leading together
Chapter 3 · Challenges with distributed teams
The shift from hierarchical leadership to leading together asks something from everyone involved, not just those at the top. The practitioners we spoke to have thought carefully about what it requires – both from the managers learning to let go and the employees learning to step up.
Karin Tenelius locates the starting point in something that seems simple: awareness. Most managers who operate in a parent-child dynamic with their employees don’t realise they are doing it. Neither do the employees. “It’s an invisible power, a hierarchical dynamic going on,” she says. In Sweden in particular, she observes that managers often believe they are coaching, involving and listening when, in practice, they are not. The theory is there; the behaviour has not followed. “So it’s an awakening.” And from awareness, she argues, comes the possibility of choice: the ability to notice the pattern you are in and decide, in that moment, to do something different. That choice requires honest feedback and straightforward interaction, catching yourself over and over again as old habits reassert themselves. At Tuff Leadership Training, where she and her colleagues have been self-organised for 23 years, they have developed a direct language for this. When someone slips into a passive or victim-like stance, a colleague might say: “We don’t have any employees here; we just have owners. Can you choose to be an owner? How would that sound?” It takes time, she says, especially for managers who have spent years in a different role. But it is learnable, through sustained practice and repeated choice.
Nati Lombardo approaches the same question from the manager’s perspective and offers something like a practical checklist for what genuine role modeling requires. It starts with showing up authentically: being willing to be vulnerable if you want others to be vulnerable, receiving feedback openly, and asking for it proactively rather than waiting for it to arrive. It means saying “I don’t know” when you do not know, making it visible that mistakes happen and that they are survivable, and holding yourself accountable if you want accountability to become a shared norm. “Those are probably some of the crucial pieces,” she says. Beyond that, it calls for making a real change to the way you occupy meetings and decisions: moving from directing to facilitating, from deciding to involving, from delegating tasks to opening up shared processes. “How do you involve others? How do you bring them into the conversation? How do we encourage shared decision-making or shared delegation?” For employees who are more used to a traditional passive role, Nati is honest about the challenge. Change on that side of the relationship is harder to sustain if the people with formal power have not shifted first. “You first need the leaders and the people in power to shift out of their current perspective, their roles, or their ways of doing things, to model something different, so that others can pick it up and start doing it as well. Otherwise, you can talk as much as you want.” Given that foundation, she points to a few practices that can help employees grow into more active participation. Learning facilitation skills is one, not only because it equips people to run meetings but because the act of facilitating is itself a form of stepping into leadership. “It gives you a sense of empowerment, a sense of: I can also do something that is leading the team towards some outcome.” Proactively asking for feedback is another practice she recommends, as it helps build self-awareness and opens space for the kinds of difficult conversations that most teams find hard to sustain.
One practice Nati returns to with particular enthusiasm is what she calls pods: small peer coaching groups of three to five people who meet regularly, usually every two weeks, specifically to support each other’s development. The groups are deliberately composed across different parts of the organisation, bringing together people who do not normally work together, which gradually strengthens the social fabric of the organisation. They are rotated every six months or so, so that trust and relationships keep building in new directions. What happens in a session varies by team and by moment. Sometimes someone brings a specific challenge they want to think through together. Sometimes it is more of a check-in: how are you feeling, what are you struggling with, what do you need? Some pods use more structured formats – like Troika from Liberating Structures1 or Case Clinic from Theory U2 – for delving deeper into something. Others keep it more conversational. Sometimes the focus is tied to a specific developmental goal a person is working on. “If that person is currently focused on bringing more appreciation into the team, the focus of the meetings will be on that developmental goal and how they’re doing.” Sometimes it is as immediate as: “I just need feedback on this presentation I’m preparing.”
What Nati finds significant about the pods model is what it replaces and supplements. The standard HR procedure of a once-or-twice-a-year developmental talk between a manager and an employee, with a few followup meetings scattered throughout the year, leaves people without the kind of continuous, in-time support that actually helps them grow. A manager responsible for 20 or even 50 people cannot realistically be the primary source of assessing their performance and knowing what development is needed for each employee. “I have no idea what they all do in everyday operations, so I cannot be the main and only person evaluating their performance and helping them develop,” as one manager she worked with put it. Peer coaching, distributed across the organisation and built into regular rhythms, begins to fill that gap. And in doing so, it shifts the culture: from one where development is something steered for you by someone above you, to one where it is something you and your colleagues are actively doing together.
Chapter 4 · The evolving role of employees: learning to take initiative and responsibility
In most organisations, a manager’s role comes with a very clear “score”. There are expectations about how to occupy a room, how much to speak, where to stand, and what to know. Managers are expected to have the answers, to perform and be competent, and to be the central presence in meetings. Their schedules reflect this: dense with meetings – occasions to demonstrate that they are managing others. In the workshops he facilitated, Dejan Srhoj proposed something that goes directly against all of this. What if managers became listening structures instead? What if they spent time simply hanging around the kitchen, observing with their whole body, entering meetings only when invited, attending to what was actually happening around them rather than performing their role at the front of the room?
The proposal sounds simple. What it asks of people is considerable, because the role is not just a set of behaviours. It is, as Dejan describes it, a score that people inhabit so completely that they become it. “A lot of what we do is: we perform our job role, and the role has a quite clear set of instructions. And the moment you find yourself in it, suddenly you become this role.” What dance and choreography do to make this visible is they invite people to shift perspective, to move differently in the room, and to relate to others from an unfamiliar position in which the role and the person are not the same thing. The role demands certain behaviours, but there is space, always, for negotiation between what is expected and how you actually inhabit it. We just need to provide a rehearsal ground for practising other ways of being with each other.
When that space opens up, something changes in how people are viewed and view themselves. Employees who had been silent through entire workshops began, over time, to facilitate, to propose, to lead. In one case, a person who had said almost nothing in the early sessions ended up reading a poem to a room of politicians and moving them to tears. The shift of power was not announced or planned. It emerged as people encountered themselves and each other outside the positions their roles had assigned them. “By shifting roles, or by inviting people to change perspectives, or how they see things, or how they are in the room, how they relate to others, we get different aspects and qualities of the people, and see them as individuals that have their own perks and qualities, which are different from the role that they are expected to fulfil or embody.” What becomes possible then are relations that are fuller, more trusting, more capable of genuine dialogue and even criticism, because the people in them are no longer being taken as monolithic structures but as dynamic, emerging processes. Dejan is careful about how he views managers. He does not experience them as powerful beings who could change things but choose not to. He experiences them as people under enormous and rarely acknowledged pressure, caught between the desires and needs of the people below them and the expectations and demands of the people above them, constrained from every side, and often privately longing for exactly the kind of playfulness and flexibility they are not supposed to show. “At the end of the day, you are also just a human being who also maybe wants to be playful and not give a damn, but you’re not allowed to. Or you don’t allow yourself, because you think you’re not allowed.” These restrictions he describes are real, and they are structural. What the workshops try to do, at their best, is create a temporary suspension of that structure: a space where a manager can spend a day performing as an employee, or as someone deeply critical of everything, and where an employee who has never led anything can suddenly be the one creating a choreography and discovering what it actually takes.
The invitation, ultimately, is not to blame individuals for the roles they play but to look honestly at what produces those roles. “Let’s not assume that they are simply very stiff beings afraid of change. Let’s assume that they actually want change. Let’s assume that they are not stiff, and let’s look at what does not allow them to be playful or flexible. Let’s look at the structural context to see why they are like they are.” That shift in framing, from judging people to examining the systems that shape them, is one of the quieter but more consequential things that artistic practice, with its attention to how roles are constructed and inhabited, brings to the work of leading together.
Chapter 4 · The evolving role of employees: learning to take initiative and responsibility
In both Denmark and Sweden, the law requires that every employee have a person formally responsible for their workplace. That legal reality means that in the public sector, the question has never been whether to remove managers, but rather how their role needs to change. Mette Aagaard has spent years working with this question, and her answer is grounded in what she calls the hybrid model: an organisational design where formal leadership structures continue to exist alongside distributed decision-making. Here, the challenge is learning to make both work together without one undermining the other.
The clearest example she draws on is a child welfare NGO in Denmark with around 250 employees. Mette has followed them closely, and their approach, work, and impact formed an important part of the research for her own book on shared leadership*. They started their journey in 2018 and have persistently continued to develop their own model. The way they explain it is through a spatial metaphor. The traditional organisational structure, the reporting lines, the formal manager, the place where someone assesses how you are doing and whether you have access to development, is what they call “the place where you live”. It is where you feel a sense of connectedness, where someone holds responsibility for your well-being and growth. The circles, the distributed decision-making structures, they call “the place where you go to work”. The two serve different purposes and neither replaces the other.
Within that model, the role of the formal manager shifts considerably. At “home”, the manager’s job is to maintain an ongoing dialogue with each employee: asking how they are doing, if anything is standing in the way of them feeling committed and able to thrive, and whether there are conflicts that need addressing. Checking whether the base is safe. When it comes to the work, the manager’s role is to ensure that mandates are clear, that aims are well-defined, and that decision-making authority is genuinely distributed rather than just nominally so. If two teams are struggling to coordinate, the manager does not step in and solve it. Rather, the manager creates the conditions for the people involved to solve it themselves. “My role would be to invite that dialogue, but not to solve the problem. To facilitate, to keep the dialogue open, not jump into solution mode right away.” There is even a phrase for the temptation to do otherwise: “stealing decisions”. Once you have given the right to decide to someone else, you cannot come and take it back. “You have to keep them there.”
However, certain responsibilities remain with top management. Strategy, for instance, is still the responsibility of senior leaders, even if others should be involved in it. What’s important is the overall shift in the manager’s role – from the go-to fix-it person to a facilitator of dialogue, decision-making, and exploration.
According to Mette, what this shift requires goes deeper than a set of new skills. There is thinking that needs to be unlearned before new thinking can take root, and it operates at such a subconscious level that making it conscious is the necessary first step. One held assumption she often works to dismantle is the belief that consensus is the foundation of all good decision-making, and that when consensus cannot be reached, the manager must step in and decide. Replacing that assumption requires developing a genuinely different relationship to disagreement: the capacity to refrain from using whatever formal or informal power you hold to push your own preferences through, and to stay in a mode of exploration rather than resolution. “It’s perfectly fine that I don’t agree with you. I don’t need to agree with you in order for us to move forward and explore and improve and execute.” That is not primarily a skill, she says. It is a fundamental belief which, once understood and held, gradually translates into action and eventually becomes a skill.
The same logic applies to what Mette calls the dance between managers and employees, a dynamic she has seen play out in every organisation she has worked with. The steps are familiar: an employee notices something that is not working and reports it to the manager, and both parties operate from the shared assumption that it is the manager’s job to fix it. If the manager does not act, the employee is entitled to complain. And managers, she says, largely accept this arrangement, feeling the full weight of a responsibility that is both isolating and structurally impossible to discharge well. “If someone tells me two colleagues cannot collaborate, or an employee looks completely exhausted, or a department can’t make sense of a recent change, I feel it’s 100% my responsibility to fix it. That leaves managers in a very lonely place, but also a very inefficient one, because we are very rarely able to solve these kinds of issues alone.”
The dance becomes a blaming cycle. Managers want employees to take more responsibility for the shared workplace and grow frustrated when they do not. Employees feel ready to take responsibility but find that without a real mandate, their initiative leads nowhere. “It’s only if he or she agrees with me that my responsibility can actually be used for anything.” Both sides are right about the other, and neither can move without the other moving first.
The shift Mette is pointing towards calls for a replacement of that whole dynamic with something different: the idea that whatever occurs is a shared responsibility, and that simply naming a problem does not fulfil your part of it. “I offer my willingness to come up with ideas. I offer my collegial support regardless of whether you are a manager, an employee, or a colleague. We need to figure out what we can do together.” It sounds straightforward when stated plainly. She is honest: getting it to work in practice is something else entirely.
Chapter 4 · Competencies needed for managers and employees
Resistance is one of the most consistent challenges in any transformation towards leading together, and it takes many forms. There are those who are sceptical from the start, those who engage initially but pull back when things get difficult, and those who have been in an organisation long enough that the prospect of changing now, perhaps close to retirement, simply does not feel worth the effort. Karin Tenelius has worked with all of these, and her approach begins with a fundamental observation: much of what appears to be resistance is usually misunderstanding.
“If people understand what it could be, most are actually positive,” she says. The problem is that in the early stages of any such process, people fill in the gaps of their understanding with their worst fears. They imagine chaos, or the loss of things they value, or something vaguely threatening that they cannot name. “There are so many misunderstandings in the beginning when introducing shared leadership that make them negative, so you have to invest a lot of time early on to distinguish what this is about, what it is and what it is not.” That investment of time upfront, she argues, is not a detour from the real work. It is the real work, because people who operate from misunderstanding will resist even the changes they would welcome if they understood them properly.
Once the misunderstandings are cleared, the next step is to move from the organisational level to the personal. It is not enough to explain why the change is good for the organisation. People need to be able to see what it means for them individually before they are genuinely ready to engage. “Getting to the level of individual self-interest is necessary before people move. If they understand what’s in it for them, they can be onboarded much more easily and quickly, without getting stuck.” And the framing matters too. Presenting change as a destination, a fixed end state that the organisation is moving towards, tends to generate more resistance than presenting it as a journey, something that will evolve and that people are part of shaping. “It’s not about ‘this is where we’re going’; it’s about starting a journey towards something, and things will evolve.”
Karin has also made a deliberate shift in the language she uses. She no longer leads with the term “self-organising”, which can trigger exactly the kind of anxious misreading she is trying to avoid. Instead, she talks about strengthening collaboration, a word that most people already believe in and want more of, and that carries none of the associations with chaos or loss of structure that self-organisation can evoke. “Real collaboration, in the end, leads to self-organising,” she says. But you do not have to start there.
Chapter 4 · Challenges with changing roles for leading together in hierarchical organisations
When it comes to introducing participatory structures, Mette Aagaard’s first piece of advice is about pace: “I would definitely take it slow, because there’s so much at stake for the managers in particular.” Managers need to feel safe enough to genuinely distribute mandates, and employees need to feel confident that what is being proposed is not just another initiative that will be replaced by a different buzzword in three years. Change fatigue is real, and moving too fast feeds it.
With that caveat established, her practical recommendation is to work simultaneously across four tracks. But when asked to identify the easiest starting point, she points to something specific: find a task, not a team, that could genuinely benefit from distributed mandate and faster decision-making, and build a small experiment around that task. “Look at the task more than at the teams: which tasks could benefit from distributed or shared leadership? Then start organising a team around that task, where you would immediately start deploying the principles of shared leadership.” The key is to choose something that is meaningfully connected to daily operations, but not the most complex or high-stakes thing you could possibly attempt.
She draws on an example from an elderly care home she worked with some years ago. One team was made responsible for nutrition and food: a task that was integrated into daily operations, and where a different way of organising seemed likely to help. They formed a team around it, introduced participatory meeting structures drawing on sociocracy, defined clear roles, and developed new ways of engaging with the elderly residents living in the home. Full decision-making power was given to that team. It became, as she puts it, a small experiment that would test not only the team’s capacity to work in a new way, but the leadership team’s actual readiness to hand over the mandate.
That readiness, she says, is where the most common and most consequential pitfall lies. “It sounds so appealing to most modern leaders that they really want to do this. But then, when it comes to it, the day the team makes a decision you do not agree with, that’s usually when the mandate disappears. And that doesn’t work.” Giving a team decision-making power and then quietly retrieving it the moment a decision is made that the manager would not have made is not distributed leadership. It is distributed leadership with an invisible veto attached. “You need to figure out what to do when the team makes a decision you do not like.” Starting with a task that is relevant but not the most difficult one you can imagine is partly about manageability, and partly about giving the team a realistic chance of following through.
The same elderly care home had a second team organised around activities for residents, including sing-alongs, small excursions, visits from a neighbouring school, and knitting groups. Again, relevant and meaningful work, but not the kind of territory where a bold decision would provoke a crisis. Around that task, the organisation began structuring what distributed leadership actually required in practice: what decision-making power would look like, how roles would be distributed, what the manager’s role would become, how interactions between the team and leadership would be defined, and how targets would be set. “You have these small labs where you test the structures at a micro level,” she says, “and then afterward you start figuring out how to deploy this to a larger part of the organisation.”
The sequence matters. Starting with the whole organisational structure and trying to redesign everything at once is, in her view, simply too challenging to be workable. The small lab approach allows teams and leaders alike to learn what a distributed mandate actually feels like before they are asked to trust it at scale.
Chapter 5 · From top-down to co-creation principles
In our research projects, we’ve found participatory meeting structures to be the easiest way for teams to introduce new structures and invite more participation and co-creation among all team members. The perceived risk of trying new formats for weekly team meetings or monthly workplace meetings was low, and employees were ready to share responsibility for preparing and co-facilitating them. It was a safe space for colleagues to practise facilitation skills, and as their confidence grew, they also started facilitating workshops and events with other teams or external guests.
Where should one begin when teams are ready to start introducing more participatory structures? When we asked Nati Lombardo, she cautioned that not everything can change at once, and some changes are more accessible and welcome than others. Having considered this carefully, Nati says that decision-making is usually one of the most accessible entry points because you can start on a small scale. You do not need to overhaul the entire way the organisation makes decisions but can begin by identifying which decisions should involve more people, drawing boundaries around them, and giving clear mandates.
Sharing the Facilitator role during meetings and processes is another early win, she says. The reason is one she returns to often: the act of standing at the front of the room and facilitating a process gives individuals a sense of empowerment, which shifts the way they understand their own role. Pods, the peer support and coaching structures she described earlier, are also relatively straightforward to introduce to a team. Partly because they operate alongside existing structures rather than replacing them, and partly because they decouple development and support from the manager, which most people quickly recognise as a relief rather than a threat.
Chapter 5 · Participatory meeting structures
Nati Lombardo reflects on some observations regarding decision-making processes and common tendencies around them. The pull toward consensus is understandable, being rooted in a genuine desire for inclusion, but it creates its own problems. “It falls into the trap of: everything needs to be decided by consensus, everyone needs to be involved in everything, and the pendulum swings too far the other way.” The tendency towards consensus is particularly strong in certain cultures, like Sweden. Nati’s preferred starting point is the advice process: a structure in which the person with the formal mandate to make a decision is expected to consult with those who will be affected by it or who have relevant expertise, before deciding. The final decision might still rest with the manager, but the act of genuinely seeking and listening to input changes the nature of the process in ways that matter. “Involving people in the process is what becomes important. People actually do listen.” It is a way of opening up the idea that participation is real, without the paralysis that full consensus processes can create.
For the kinds of decisions where managers might begin modelling the advice process, she thinks about situations where the outcome will directly affect the people around the decision-maker. Hiring is one example she finds useful across many different contexts: the person being brought into a team is going to work closely with colleagues who have relevant knowledge and a real stake in the outcome, so widening the process to include their perspective, even when the final decision remains with HR or a manager, makes the hiring more considered and signals something important about how the organisation operates. Budget questions are another possibility, particularly when there is discretionary money to allocate. Asking the people closest to the daily work how a pot of resources might best be used, and genuinely taking that input into account, is a concrete and low-risk way of practicing the advice process while building the habit of involving people in decisions that affect them. “In smaller teams it’s a bit easier,” she acknowledges, “but in larger organisations it can be more challenging.” The principle, however, translates across contexts. Start with decisions that are meaningful but limited in scope. Involve the people who have the most relevant knowledge and the most direct stake in the outcome. Then let the manager or person responsible for the issue make the final call, ensuring the consultation is genuinely real rather than merely procedural.
Chapter 5 · Participatory decision-making
One way to directly experience what participatory structures actually feel like is to build something together under a set of enabling constraints. Dejan Srhoj describes an exercise he has used in organisational workshops that makes this clear: a group has to create a three-minute performance, and each person can contribute a movement or a movement sequence. That is the score. Within it, almost everything else is open. Nobody knows in advance who will contribute what, whether there will be music, how the space will be used, if one person will end up shaping most of the choreography or whether contributions will be distributed evenly. What is known is that everyone is invited, that the knowledge and desire each person brings is a legitimate resource, and that the goal is shared.
What emerges from the exercise, in a very short time, is a lived encounter with most of the questions that shared leadership poses. How do we co-create under the pressure of a real goal? Who do we need to satisfy: ourselves, the process, an audience member (customer)? What material conditions are required, and who provides them? Leadership shifts from person to person as the work unfolds, and that shifting is not theoretical but embodied, felt in the moment of deciding to step forward or step back. “In a very short time, you get to embody many of the topics or theories of how we can share leadership. And this usually allows for a much deeper reflection on questions like: How am I acting in this group? How are we behaving together as a group? What is needed? What kind of environment do we need in order to do this collectively?”
Beyond the workshop settings, Dejan draws on examples from his own artistic practice that point towards what organisations might look like if they trusted emergence over predefinition. He describes being part of an improvisational performance called Special Edition, by choreographer Andreja Rauch Podrzavnik, in which musicians and dancers would meet and perform together for approximately an hour. The only thing decided in advance was the structure of duets, trios and quartets. Everything else, what actually happened between the performers, would emerge from the relations and the dialogue in the room. Magical moments might occur. So might complete miscommunication, egos taking over, and failures of listening and observation. “You’re interested in all of this as an audience but also as a performer. And you go consciously into that risk, and everyone involved knows what those risks are. And this is not an inhibition but actually a quality that you’re looking for.”
Dejan can imagine a team within an organisation working with a similar proposal. We have a month, we have these people, and we want to create a certain service or achieve a certain goal. But how we do it, and exactly what emerges, we do not decide in advance. We allow for experimentation, knowing that some things will produce magic and some things will fail, and that both are part of the learning process. The contrast with how most organisations actually operate is obvious: “They first define a very clear goal but also processes for how to get there, and then there’s very little space to actually experiment and find out how you could do it in different ways.”
His own practice of mapping the city offers another angle on this. Dejan sets a score, in which the audience observes everything that unfolds in a certain part of the city as if they were watching a dance performance, translating what they see into a kind of fiction. The information one can gather in this way is rich: about how people relate, about how architecture defines the choreography of movement through space, about what they themselves are attending to and what they are looking for. He brought a version of this observational practice into the organisational workshops, inviting participants to observe their own working environment as if seeing it for the first time: noticing when people arrive at the office, when they leave, when they take breaks, how they relate to each other, and whether the space invites them to connect or to be isolated. “Without the assumption that they already know. So one goes into the practice with openness to seeing what emerges.”
The most extended example he offers is a festival his collective once organised, an experiment in what a dance festival could be if it trusted its participants entirely. Instead of a fixed programme, they invited around 50 artists and performers, and asked each of them to bring along an invitation (instead of a finished artwork): an invitation to a workshop, practice, lecture, or proposal to explore something together. Each morning, the programme for the day was co-created over a shared breakfast. Nothing was scheduled in advance beyond those gathering moments. The score, as he describes it, was ten days and fifty people, with one rule: each day we create a menu for the day, and then that is it. “You trust the participants, that they have an interest in getting to know each other, sharing something, and learning together. You trust that they will show up even though they don’t need to. You understand everything that is happening as information that you can work with.”
What emerged during those ten days was not chaos but festivity in its original sense: people celebrating together, teaching things they were still learning themselves, raising the topic of care, and questioning what it means to invite artists rather than artworks – to say we want people with whatever they can bring rather than inviting products. The experiment cost them 50 percent of their budget for the following year because funders did not recognise it as a festival in the expected sense. “By pretending, you usually get more money and budgets than by actually doing what a festival is – a festivity.”
This last experience, in our opinion, illustrates the tension that runs through this handbook: between the systems that reward the appearance of control and the practices that make something new and meaningfully possible.
Chapter 5 · Challenges in introducing and maintaining participatory structures
Mette Aagaard doesn’t talk about where to begin, but about what kind of conviction needs to be in place before anything else. The transformations she has seen sustain themselves are those where the impulse to change is deeply tied to the organisation’s actual mission, often because an external pressure or a new strategic direction has made it impossible to continue as before. “It’s not just a communication task. It’s a fundamental conviction that we cannot continue to do what we’re doing now if we are to serve the citizens or the employees.” That conviction must be real, not rhetorical, because without genuine commitment to the underlying purpose, the journey will become cumbersome and people will quietly return to what they know.
Karin Tenelius reflects on the specific question of the public sector, and the importance of connecting the transformation towards leading together to its purpose. Around half of her clients work in the public sector, and she finds it more meaningful than private sector work. The public sector has more tolerance for inefficiency than the private sector, which also means it has more to gain. Its advantage is that it is not driven by quarterly results and tends to carry a genuine sense of purpose, of being there for citizens, for pupils, for improving the health and well-being of communities. That sense of purpose, she argues, is something many public organisations have lost touch with, and reconnecting with it is not just motivationally useful; It’s what makes transformation feel worth the cost. “Municipalities can start to look like ordinary organisations instead of finding their soul again.” And when they do reconnect with that, the scarcity of resources, which is so often experienced as a constraint, can become a driver. When you lack the resources to do everything yourself, you have every reason to activate the community around you, and that activation is itself a form of leading together with citizens.
Chapter 6 · What should you consider before embarking on a transformation journey?
Nati Lombardo’s starting advice is directed at the change agent who does not hold formal power: find an ally who does. Without someone in a position of authority who is genuinely on board, the initiative will remain fragile. Once that foundation exists, her recommendation is to resist the temptation to go wide and instead go deep in one place. Choose a team that already has some spark for this, or a strong culture of trust, or people who are ready to experiment. Try things, see what works in that specific context and culture, and then let it spread from there organically. “You can cross-pollinate to other teams and see what takes hold.” For leaders who want to begin changing their own practice without waiting for an organisation-wide mandate, the same logic applies: bring a different way of being into the spaces you already occupy, propose something to your team, see how they respond, and build from there.
On scaling up, Nati has observed that the most sustainable expansion happens not through top-down rollout but through curiosity. When a team is working in a different way and something is visibly grabbing, useful, and enjoyable, people from other teams start to notice and want to try it themselves. “It expands organically instead of being enforced from the top.” At some point, once several groups are already experimenting, it becomes possible to establish cross-team structures that begin to hold everything together. And at the point where an organisation decides to transition more fully, a larger conversation with everyone becomes necessary: about what the change will actually entail for individuals, what it will look like in practice, and whether people really want it.
Karin Tenelius is candid about the distance between where she started and where she is now in her thinking about how to support these transitions. “I’ve gone from a very naive vision to a more down-to-earth one,” she says. She no longer encourages organisations to pursue complete transformation. She encourages them to be genuinely inspired by self-organising principles and take from them what they can realistically absorb. The conditions matter more than the ambition. Managers need to be not just intellectually persuaded but personally willing to change. If the working climate in a team is unhealthy, that needs to be addressed before new practices are introduced, because no new way of working will take root in soil that is already poisoned. And the starting point should always be the people who are already ready: the pockets of the organisation where there is genuine longing for something different. “Work with people who are engaged and brave. You can find them in any organisation. Build on those people, support them, invest in them, and see the change they can create.”
When those first teams have genuinely shifted, the most powerful thing they can do is become ambassadors, not because someone asks them to, but because they cannot help it. “Two women managers really became ambassadors because they couldn’t help themselves, they found it so valuable.” But that only happens when the results are significant enough to be undeniable. Small improvements do not generate ambassadors. Transformative experiences do. Which means doing everything possible to create the conditions for real results in the first teams before expecting the word to spread. And it’s crucial to find change agents higher up in the hierarchy, because without eventual top management engagement, the work remains–as she puts it–a guerrilla project. Fine as far as it goes, but limited in its reach.
Chapter 6 · What should you consider before embarking on a transformation journey?
When Nati Lombardo talks about the role of top management, she is direct: without their involvement, the change will not hold at scale. But the way they engage matters just as much as whether they engage. The worst version is a top-down announcement that the organisation is now going to selfmanage. The better version is top leadership that holds the process rather than driving the outcome– presenting the concept as a question rather than a decision. This approach models the kind of participatory stance that the transformation asks of everyone from the outset. “What would it look like if they held the process: ‘I’ve been considering this, what do you all think?’” That positioning, she argues, changes everything about how the change lands.
Chapter 6 · What should you consider before embarking on a transformation journey?
Mette Aagaard insists that leaders who want to initiate this change must fully understand what it demands of them personally before they start expecting it from others. One of the most common pitfalls she sees is leaders who grasp the concept and then assume the work is now for everyone else to do. “If you want to change the organisation, everybody needs to take a critical look at their own behaviour, practice, and habits, and that goes for leaders too.” The middle management layer, she adds, is consistently underestimated and underinvested in these processes. If you want to change a hierarchy, you need the hierarchy to work with you rather than against you.
Karin Tenelius reflects on what the journey has meant for her personally. As a founder and CEO, she has had to learn to trust that her ideas can survive without her defending them, and that being vulnerable and honest about why something matters to her is more effective than using the power she has to push it through. “I’ve learned other ways that are much more collaborative.” And what she has gained is something she describes as immense freedom: the freedom of not needing to control outcomes, write reports, or monitor everything. The freedom of being surrounded by people who are honest with her, and of not needing to be afraid of honesty in return.
Nati Lombardo has spent years supporting other organisations through transitions toward self-management, but she is candid about the fact that the learning has run in both directions. When asked what she has taken from the journey personally, the first thing she names is the sheer amount of inner work involved, something she had not anticipated at the start. “I didn’t really consider that at the beginning. How much I had to look at my own behaviours and patterns.” The personal dimension of this kind of transformation, the need to examine your own habitual ways of operating and the assumptions you carry without knowing it, turns out to be as demanding as anything on the organisational side.
Chapter 6 · What should you consider before embarking on a transformation journey?
There are always setbacks alongside the successes, Karin Tenelius observes. Always forces working to keep things as they are, and always moments that feel like failure. But culture, she says, is like air. It can look completely stuck and then suddenly crack open. “When it looks really horrible and ugly, all of a sudden it cracks and opens. And then that is a genuine breakthrough, a true leap forward.” Which means that the most important quality for anyone doing this work is the capacity to stay connected to the process, to resist the urge to plan everything, and to stay ready for the unexpected. “You don’t have maps, really. You have a few, but very little guidance. You have to stay connected to the process all the time and see what’s happening.”
Chapter 6 · Things to consider during your transformation journey
Nati Lombardo suggests that retrospectives are useful for sustaining the practice of leading together over time. The ability to regularly come together and name what is or isn’t working, and continually make adjustments, allows the practice to keep evolving rather than calcifying or quietly dissolving. “At the beginning the ideal can look beautiful, but once you start putting it into practise things emerge, and it’s not so easy. So at least being able to talk about it, to name what’s not there yet, and to keep looking for improvements is key.”
Chapter 6 · Things to consider during your transformation journey
The hardest thing about bringing an artistic practice into an organisational setting, Dejan Srhoj says, is not proposing the exercise. (That part is relatively straightforward.) The hard part is standing behind it, holding space for whatever needs to unfold, and resisting the urge to intervene. “Like a psychotherapist, my role is to hold a space for the creative process to unfold. And I feel the biggest challenge for people who haven’t done it a lot is not to propose, because that’s not so hard, but to stand behind it and to hold the space for whatever has to unfold.” It took him many years to develop that quality of presence: the ability to see very quickly what could have been done differently, what might have helped, and to leave that knowledge unused, because the experience itself is what people need, not the correction.
That is why he sees the natural next step in this work as training people both from artistic and organisational backgrounds not only to participate in co-creation processes around shared leadership, but also to facilitate and hold space for them. This knowledge should be widely distributed, not kept by a small number of practitioners.
But there is another entry point, available to anyone, that doesn’t require specific training at all. Every person already has a relationship with movement. They walk to work, breathe, sleep, go to the gym, play a sport. The question Dejan invites us to consider is, what happens when you shift something small within what you are already doing? What if the 10-minute walk from the underground to the office became a half-hour walk, with stops? What if you ran it as fast as you could? What if you took a different path? What if you walked it with a colleague in silence, or talking loudly? “We are already professionals at walking from the underground to the office, we are already professionals at observing the space. What if I just observed it for a longer or shorter time?” These are not trivial variations. They are scores, in the choreographic sense: simple enabling constraints that change how you inhabit time, space and relationships that generate real information about yourself and others.
The same logic applies inside the workplace. What if the meeting rooms were rearranged? What if the meetings were held in a forest, or conducted while moving? What if there were more time, or less, for a meeting? He describes a score developed by choreographer Lisa Nelson in the 1970s, in which a group closes their eyes and simultaneously creates a movement. What tends to happen is that people begin making the same movement, or nearly the same movement, without being able to see each other. Something in the shared space has been informed in a particular way, and people begin working from it without knowing how. “I don’t know how it’s possible. But there’s something that the space has been informed with in a certain way, and people suddenly start to work from that common space.”
For more extended or demanding processes, facilitation and training are necessary. But for beginning, for shifting something small in everyday life and seeing what it opens, the knowledge required is already in the room.
For those who want to go further and collaborate with artists directly, Dejan’s first piece of advice is to address the prejudices that run in both directions. Artists often carry an assumption that organisations are purely efficiency and profitdriven, indifferent to everything that does not generate output. Organisations often assume that artists are unreliable, working from mysterious inspiration rather than a specific method and knowledge. All these assumptions get in the way of what could be a productive collaboration. “Artists are workers. They have methods, they have a lot of knowledge, they have a lot of references and experiences.” The first step is personal: finding an artist whose work interests you, approaching them, and starting a dialogue. It takes time, and it is not self-evident that it will work. But there must be a basic trust that there is knowledge on both sides worth sharing.
Dejan is also clear that not all art is the same, just as not all organisations are the same. Within choreography, as within any field, there are practitioners who work in deeply traditional, hierarchical ways and have no interest in questioning authority or structure. What matters is finding the right meeting point between a specific artistic sensibility and a specific organisational readiness. “I would not say there is one recipe. There is really a dialogue.”
What he’s observed in the organisations that have engaged with this work is that change tends to begin in small and concrete ways. Managers who participated in the workshops reported learning how important it is to create space at the start of a meeting for people to arrive, slow down, and land in their bodies before the work begins. Some have started reading a poem or conducting a short breathing or grounding exercise with participants. Some have begun rethinking the spaces where they meet, taking their team into a forest instead of a meeting room. Some have shifted their own roles, moving towards the listening structure proposed in the workshops proposed and finding ways to be present and attentive rather than performing and directing. One manager described wanting to give their team time to simply sit in the kitchen for a few hours, observing and listening. “Things are starting to happen,” Dejan says. “But you have to be quite courageous to question these existing patterns in organisations with a lot of established expectations.” The courage required is not dramatic. It is the quieter courage of doing something differently, in a context where the pressure to do things as they have always been done is constant and palpable.
Chapter 6 · Things to consider during your transformation journey
Mette Aagaard is firm that this process must be understood as an organisational transformation, not a toolbox. “Organisations that approach this as if it’s a toolbox, you take a course, learn to use the tools, start implementing, and then when that doesn’t solve all the problems, look for another toolbox, that’s a different thing.” If you genuinely think of it as a transformation, approach it that way.
One concrete investment Mette always recommends in the startup phase is developing facilitation skills. Not everyone needs to be trained, but the people who will facilitate dialogues do, and so do the leaders who will be giving them the mandate to do so. Once the process is underway, she recommends having some kind of unit or entity–ideally itself organised through distributed leadership–whose ongoing role is to sense what the organisation needs and respond: developing new training, facilitating new dialogues, creating new tools as the situation demands. And on the question of how far along any organisation is, the most honest answer she has heard comes from organisations that say they do not know, because they are never done. “It’s a constant development journey. You have to love the journey. It’s not a matter of getting there.”
Chapter 6 · Things to consider during your transformation journey
Karin Tenelius has advice for the change agents who feel alone in this work–which, in her experience, is most of them. “Form communities across organisations. Create communities where you can find your allies, and gain energy and inspiration from them.” And for those encountering colleagues who are skeptical or resistant, her counsel is to not argue or persuade, but to listen to them, understand what their concerns actually are, let them be where they are, and trust that they will find their way when the time is right. “Respect them, listen to them, and be genuinely interested in what’s bothering them. That’s the way.”
Nati Lombardo adds another piece of advice. This work is complex. It is not a switch you flick. It requires personal involvement and ongoing inner work alongside the organisational changes. But it is also a field with a growing body of collective experience to draw on, and nobody starting out today needs to begin from nothing. “A lot of people are out there trying it. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel. You can build on what all of us have tried in the past. You’re not alone.”
Chapter 6 · Things to consider during your transformation journey